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The names PIPE and PIPES
Alan ( Fred) Pipes, of England added this note on the subject on 09/29/08 NOTE: Visit his web site at www.fredpipes.com
	Hi Bob I've just been reading your correspondence with David. My understanding of the origin of the name is that an 's' on the end of a name can mean 'son of', like a shorthand for, say, Robinson, son of Robin. Pipes could well have derived from Pipe in the distant past! BTW thanks to Jane Greenaway, I've added another generation to my tree: 1796 14 May Samuel Pipes (waterman/coal dealer) marries Sarah Cook, Gainsborough, Lincs. Witnesses Samuel Cook and Wm Sutter(?) [JG] ...taking me to Lincolnshire! I haven't found a birth date for him yet! I spent some days in Derby last year looking up the haunts of Samuel Pipes (b 1822) and generally getting the feel of the place! Seems most Pipes still live around Derbyshire and points east! I also found a Hull connection... Fred Alan (Fred) Pipes FRSA fred@fredpipes.com if I'm away, try: alan.pipes@gmail.com www.fredpipes.com blog: www.fredblog.co.uk NUJ member since 1975

Is John Pipes Senior related in any way to the Pipe Family in America?
	It was my pleasure to hear from a Pipes cousin in England this year. I thought everyone should know of the discussion we had related to dubious research being placed on the internet by people who may or may not have good intentions. All of you should know about this.
My first Email from David: 07/15/2008
	Dear Bob, I am currently researching my family history here in England and recently came across your most interesting website. Whilst I appreciate the main purpose of your site I would be grateful if you would find time to answer a query unrelated to your main goals. I note that the earliest known Pipes in America was John Pipes Snr born about 1710 and that there are connections back to England. I would be interested to know whether you or any of your contributors have been able to establish with reasonable accuracy the parentage of John Pipes Snr in England. On the Family Search website (IGI) Catherine Preston has submitted a Pedigree Chart which shows John's parents as Benjamin Pipe of Suffolk, England and Susan Last. The two forms of surname are separate and are noted as such in the early Church Parish Registers in England so it seems doubtful that John would add an "s" to his surname. The family line back as Pipe seems doubtful. Congratulations on your extensive and informative website. Best wishes, David Pipes
My Response to David: 07/15/2008
	Dear David, It is very nice to hear from you and a great surprise. I always get excited when hearing from anyone named Pipes in Britain. To answer your question, No, I have never been able to connect John Pipes Sr. to England or to any set of parents here in the US. either. He just magically appears here in Massachusetts in 1735 to marry Susannah Hathaway and that marriage is the current defining point in the Pipes narrative in the US. He must have been born about 1710 but 'where' is the key question. I have made several attempts to convince someone in England to do some research on the subject but no luck so far. Family and daily life prevent that from happening, but I keep hoping. I have had several people ask me about hiring a professional researcher in England to do the work, but outside of the cost, I am not sure I trust someone to do the work. Research in England is difficult unless you know what you are doing and there seems to be a lot of "researchers" out there who want the money and then produce results that may not be accurate. The Pipes name seems to be centered in two or three areas of England going back into the 17th and 18th centuries. And that seems to be a sticking point with me, I am not sure where to start any research without knowing what parishes to look in. I have heard over the years from Alan Pipes, two Christopher Pipes, Fred Pipes, and Sheila Extance, all from England and all interested to some extent in the Pipes family history. You can see some of their entries in the Pipes Genforum on the web. Also, a lady named Regina Grider Pipes who lives here but is a descendant of a Pipes who immigrated here in the late 1800s. Sheila and Regina are still active, but I have very old email addresses for the others. The name Catherine Preston sounds familiar to me but I do not have record of her in my files. I will check out her entry on the IGI site. I agree with you that while there are several variations of the Pipes name spelling in England over the years, a descent from Pipe to Pipes is unlikely. I have a large file on my site which you must have seen that details the name Pipe in England. I will look and see if Ben and Susan Pipe are in there. I have no idea how she could make that connection but I will check it out. Sometimes people make connections and put them on the web and have little or no proof to back it up, only a desire to have it so. I do look forward to hearing from you again and thanks for the information. Regards, Bob
David's Response: 07/15/2008
	Dear Bob, Thank you for responding so quickly to my enquiry and for the further information. Without knowing when John Snr or his ancestors first arrived in America (from passenger lists) then it is a formidable task to try and trace his ancestors in England. As you say there are several established Pipes families in England centred around Derby in Derbyshire, Burton on Trent in Staffordshire and also in the Suffolk area. I think that you would be wasting your money if you employed a professional genealogist in England to do some research - they charge by the hour and would have to trawl through numerous parish records at least in those three counties. For my own research I am looking into the early records for Derby and Staffordshire and if I found anything of interest I will of course let you know. I have recently been in contact with Alan (Fred) Pipes who is in fact a distant cousin of mine. We share the same Gt Gt Grandfather, Samuel Pipes 1822-1879. I am very skeptical of some of the pedigrees listed in IGI - I came across one for my wife's ancestors which did not look right - the contributor had managed to miss out one generation which put the whole line in doubt. Keep up your excellent work on your website. Regards, David
My Incredulous Response: 07/16/2008
	Dear David, I did some checking on the family search web site (LDS Church) on the Benjamin Pipe - Susan Last connection. It appears to me that Benjamin and Susan had a son named John about 1713 but his name was PIPE and he married a woman named French. It is in several family histories there. Then someone decided that John Pipe is really John Pipes and just added him to their ancestry! My jaw just dropped. I cannot believe that someone would do that. The records are sitting there right beside each other and its so obvious! And now several others have decided to pick it up and use it as well and now its published all over. Not sure who did it first, but it doesn't really matter now. Very Discouraging. Regards, Bob
David's Response: 07/17/2008
	Dear Bob, Thanks for checking out this discrepancy which confirms my suspicions on the accuracy of the various family pedigrees submitted by contributors. I also looked at the Ancestry website - there are numerous family trees which include John Snr and his wife Susanna Hathaway and show John's parents variously as Benjamin Pipe (and Benjamin Pipes) and mother Susan Last. The error seems to have been adopted by various family researchers. It is discouraging and annoying. I looked at the Pipes GenForum and noticed that David Pipes in response to a query about John Pipes Snr stated that William Pipes emigrated to America in 1674 and could be a relation to John Snr. I have asked David to let me have the source of his information but I have not yet received a response. I have found out that the Public Record Office here in Kew, England does have some documents relating to passenger lists for emigrants from England to America round about the 1670's and earlier. As I am now semi-retired I propose to do some research at Kew in the near future to see whether there are any records of Pipes families emigrating to America. I will let you know the outcome. It will be interesting to see whether the ancestors of John Snr in England can be identified. Regards, David
My Response to David: 07/17/2008
	Hi David, I am semi retired as well and find that I still don't have time to do all the things I want to get done! Your comment about William Pipes reminded me that there was a man named William Pipes who immigrated to Nova Scotia, Canada in 1774 (1674 may have been a typo). William had with him sons William and Jonathan Pipes. On my web site is a genealogy file of William and his descendants in Canada. It was put together by a Scott Miller who gave me permission to add it to my site. Here is a quote from that file: "In 1774 William Pipes, age 49, immigrated from England to Fort Cumberland, Nova Scotia, Canada with his sons William, age 22 and Jonathan, age 20. They crossed in the Ship Albion, leaving England form the port of Hull on March 7th, 1774. The stated reason for their leaving was the advancement of their Rents" I had often wondered if this William Pipes was related to the US Pipes' but have never found any connection here. Some of his Canadian descendants eventually migrated south into northeastern US states. I get emails from them from time to time and about 4 months ago told a lady from the west coast she was from the Canadian family and she was amazed. On my web site is also a chronological file that I put together. http://www.pipesfamily.com/chrono.htm It notes the earliest mention of a Pipes in America is a David Pipes who came here in 1665. He made a record in early Maryland records when he signed over the rights to land to the captain of the ship who transported him. (I understand that immigrants would be offered land to come here and then would sign it away, or parts of it, to pay for their transport here.) This David then disappears and there is no further record of him in the USA. There are a couple of other records of fleeting mentions of Pipes here and then nothing until 1735 when John Senior marries Susannah Hathaway. From reading the Hathaway family history books, there is the implication that her father, Abraham, may have been involved in seafaring in some way (he was known as Captain). But then he moves inland to Morristown, New Jersey for the rest of his life in 1736. I have tried to connect John Pipes to the Hathaways thru the seafaring connection, thinking John Sr. may have been on a ship owned by Abraham or at least worked for him and then married his daughter. The Hathaways were well off here and well established in Massachusetts. Its hard to imagine they would let some unknown guy marry their daughter. All that implies that John Pipes Sr may have come here from somewhere else, as opposed to having been born and raised here. The above fanciful thoughts are fueled by this article found in 1746 in Philadelphia: "William Plumstead offers reward for jailing of four men who ran away from the ship "Westmoreland". One of the men was John Pipe. I assume this occurred in Philadelphia, Pa. John Jr. would have been 7yrs. old, so this was probably John Sr. [The name is given as "John Pipe"] From a book entitled "Abstracts of items from Ben Franklin's 'Pennsylvania Gazette' year 1746" pg. 546 But as we know, the name "Pipe" was not unknown at the time, so this may or may not be our John Pipes Sr. Anyway, Keep all this in mind as you dig thru England and let me know if you happen across anything exciting! Regards, Bob
David's Response: 07/17/2008
	Dear Bob, Thank you for your further comments and the detailed information you have provided. This is certainly an intriguing and interesting conundrum (to be hopefully solved ?) I will let you know how I progress with my researches at Kew. Regards, David